The title of this post is much snarkier than I really mean for it to be. And really I’m writing this post because I’ve been such a slacker about keeping up with the incredibly vibrant and thoughtful comment thread that my last post generated. I don’t want any of the people who have commented so far on the last post to feel as if I’m not appreciative of the discussion to which they contributed with their comments. All in all, I’m really and truly grateful for what that comment thread has become – in that it hasn’t become some war between the child-having and the child-free, and it hasn’t become some debate about what “counts” in terms of reproductive choice or rights or something.
That said, there are some things in that comment thread to which I want to respond initially, and they relate to this idea of “reproductive self-esteem.”
But before I get to that, let me just preface my comments in this post with this: I think that every person who commented on the last post commented in good faith and wasn’t trying to perpetuate any sort of “mothers” vs. “child-free women” divide. And I don’t believe that any person who commented in that thread believes that women should be defined through their reproductive capacities, desires, or realities.
But with that being said, I notice the ways in which certain kinds of discourses around motherhood influenced that comment thread, and I do want to respond directly to some of those comments and to extend some of my thoughts… not to call people out in an unfair way, but rather to take this conversation further.
First, a person whom I don’t think I’ve ever seen comment here before, Tem (and then later, Temara), wrote about the ways in which motherhood can be productive for work and possible even if one feels like they are impossible, in spite of one’s anxieties. And my initial response was (I freely acknowledge) defensive. I trace my defensive response to this passage in Tem’s original comment:
“It would be misguided, though, to wait until all your worries and anxieties abated to have a baby. You sell yourself quite short if you think all the things that make you good at your job detract from your ability to parent – your commitment, integrity, strength, kindness, and your voice are all things that would make you a great parent.”
Let’s note that I responded (albeit defensively), and then Tem(ara) clarified her intent. It’s all good. I don’t draw attention to this comment because I think it was heinous, or because I feel like Tem doesn’t understand me or because I feel like I don’t understand Tem.
I think that the word “misguided” was my trigger, and then I was further triggered by the fact that Tem wrote that I was “selling myself short” if I felt that the work that I do detracts from my ability to be a parent. I want to acknowledge right here and now that it was unfair of me to judge that comment on the basis of those triggers. But I also want to note that my tendency toward defensiveness is all about how this discourse on the “motherhood imperative” works. And it has everything to do with what I objected to in my initial post, about reducing women to their reproductive refusal or potential. But more on this once I note a couple of other comments.
Later, nicoleandmaggie (Nicole? Maggie? because n&m wrote something disparate earlier) objected to the turn the comment thread had taken to specific personal rationales, saying:
“But those issues are a very different point than the original post, and somehow seem to sully it for me. In fact, they almost seem to be in opposition to the main point of the post. I’d rather see the details arguments elsewhere rather than this post devolving into the same-old same-old arguments about motherhood and work that assume the same basic assumptions that the original post argues against. The details are individual to people and should not be general statements. All the “here are my excuses for not having kids” are not excuses for many other people who chose to have kids anyway, despite X, Y, and Z. The problem is talking about them as if they’re excuses.
People’s reasons are individual and their own and even if they’re not other people’s reasons, they’re valid. And more importantly, we shouldn’t have to justify what our fertility choices are in the first place, perhaps even to ourselves. There are factors governing why people have children now or later or don’t have children now or later. They’re multi-dimensional, should not apply to everybody, and shouldn’t be such a big deal, especially when they’re not that big a deal for people with Y chromosomes.”
I don’t object to the argument that what we’re talking about is individual reasons, individual situations. But what I do object to here is that somehow reproductive “choice” means we can’t talk about individual rationales for those choices, and I object to framing rationales for not having children as “excuses” whereas nobody (not even N&M in this comment) ever frames having children as needing an “excuse.”
And then finally, cbjones1943 asserts that I am “brave” for writing the previous post, while at the same time this person talks about deciding not to comment on the comments because “girls don’t get (or, want to get) what being an autonomous adult is all about.” Um, I would not characterize a single person in that comment thread as a “girl.” Indeed, the people commenting here (with I think the exception of Comrade Physioprof), are women. And yes, there is a difference. Also, I’m not sure how brave anybody writing a pseudonymous blog really is, but that is neither here nor there.
But so here’s the thing. I’m ok with us (me, my commenters) talking about our personal experiences in relation to the question of or the fact of child-bearing. I don’t think that talking about our personal experiences means that we are somehow getting in the way of thinking about women as people – as not defined by their reproductive capacity. Here’s where I’m coming from: men can talk about their sexual lives, their reproductive lives, and yet, they are men regardless of that, outside of those conversations. If we say that women shouldn’t talk about their personal experiences in relation to sexuality and reproduction, in the service of some kind of “equality,” we’re ultimately defining femaleness (sexuality, embodiment) as negation. I’m not ok with that.
And I’m ok with women providing rationales for not having children, not because I think women shouldn’t have children or because I think such rationales mean that they “can’t” have children, given the constraints of their lives, but rather because there are legitimate rationales for not having children, regardless of sex, and when we take the ability to voice those reservations away from women, and not from men, we do women a disservice. Just because a woman talks about the negatives of having a child in her own life doesn’t mean that she doesn’t believe that she can have a child or mother a child.
Finally, just because women have or voice anxieties about their relationships to motherhood doesn’t mean that they don’t understand themselves, or function as, autonomous adults.
Just as much as women don’t “forget” to have children, they also don’t “choose” not to have children, at least in most cases, as a result of ignorance or low self-esteem. It’s not that women don’t “know” what they choose when they make choices that don’t end up with a baby. And it’s not that they don’t “believe” they can parent a child and that’s why they don’t end up with a baby.
In fact, some people (women and men) just don’t have a baby at the end of the line. Not because they forget about it, and not because they are ignorant of biological realities, and not because they are “afraid” of something that they don’t understand the joy that would result if only they took a leap of faith.
In fact, lots of people don’t become parents because they just don’t.
And if they don’t, they might have reasons, even if those reasons weren’t directly related to the kid thing. Those might not be reasons that you would have or did have, but they aren’t excuses, and they aren’t misguided anxiety. And yet, thinking about reasons doesn’t make a person a coward, nor does it make one a “girl” who doesn’t know what it means to be an autonomous adult.
The fact that I’m not having a baby right now doesn’t mean that I have some kind of low self-esteem, that I’m afraid to have a baby or that I’m afraid that I can’t handle one. It doesn’t mean that I’m making excuses, nor does it mean that I don’t realize that all! things! are! possible! It only means that I’m not having a baby. That parenthood is not in my immediate future.
I almost ended my last post with this, but then I decided not to. Here’s the thing. If I had the identity of “bachelor” open to me, none of this would be an issue. One can be a bachelor, one can be George Clooney, and nobody asks twice why you don’t have a kid. But it’s not normal for a 37-yr-old lady to declare herself a bachelor, much less a confirmed one.
Again, I don’t write this post to disparage those who commented on it – I think it’s been a really good conversation. But at the end of the day? I will say this. I really resent feeling like I have to explain not pursuing motherhood. Because I’m just not so sure what is so virtuous about that. And I’m not so sure why people feel like they need to convince me to do it, when I tell them, that at least right now, that I want my current book more. That’s not because I feel badly about myself or my potential.

I’ve really enjoyed your discussion in this and the last thread, Dr. C.
I wish there were a way to talk about happily choosing not to have a child that reworks the decision/position in something like the way that Twisty has changed “spinster aunt” for me, making it positive and amused.
I don’t really have anything to add, except that when someone uses “you” in speaking to me about their experience (as in, “you change in this way when you do X”), I think that someone doesn’t really have a way to know about me enough to say that. That person having experienced some change doesn’t mean that I would.
More about the fucken babies?
I didn’t mean that women couldn’t talk about their individual reasons for not having kids (in fact, we have several posts on the topic)… just disappointed that the last thread degenerated into “Oh, I totes understand why you don’t have kids because you don’t have family in the area, I couldn’t do that either. I’ve got family around and that’s why I can have kids.” It seemed to be back to the standard underlying, “Oh you’re a woman without kids, but your reasons are valid so it’s ok now that you’ve explained.” (Or, “Your reasons are invalid because they don’t apply to me.”) One gets that on every single other blog post on the subject.
(Also one gets condemnations of women who choose to go back to work and use daycare right after giving birth– apparently they’re abandoning their kids. They’re only forgiven if they have no choice in the matter, though I don’t really see how not having a choice in the matter changes the implied outcome. That’s also underlying bullshit, btw. And again, not something men get shamed for.)
This is why I like the idea of ambivalence as a state of being. We put a lot of emphasis on ‘knowing’ or ‘making a decision’ in our culture, and indecision is seen as ‘immature’ or ‘uneducated’. But why aren’t we allowed to be in a place of ‘thinking’ or ‘figuring out what we want’? Why do we need to have all the answers at once? And, yes, that might mean that by taking our time over decisions that we lose out – sometimes that might happen, but I think we are allowed to take that risk. I guess I think there is a problem with the idea that we choose or we don’t/ can’t choose – I want more options than that.
I think the whole bachelor “George Clooney” thing is overstated. I mean, sure, if you’re fabulously wealthy and famous and, at least by conventional standards, amazingly good looking, you can get away with it. But for us mere mortals? Umm … not so much. Granted, the kinds of questions and pressures about not joining the ranks of fatherhood are different than the ones posed to women. And I agree that they’re not as overtly hurtful, nor do they unleash the latent sexism and misogyny that women who don’t want kids face. However, in the end, it’s still all very dispiriting. When I was younger, I know for certain that two fairly long term relationships came to crashing ends because I didn’t want kids. After those disasters, when I would meet someone with whom there was a spark etc., I figured out ways to wind the conversations around to the subject of family and kids to gauge where “she” was on the matter – better that than repeat the previous pattern of heartbreak as a result of not having discussed the matter before the relationship and the deep emotional connections were established. I guess I was in a bad demographic pool because I never did find someone who didn’t want kids. And now, older and chronologically removed from the prime years of early fatherhood, it’s no better, and in fact, it’s probably worse. I’m viewed as damaged or as someone who was probably a bad catch back in his 30-something prime. Some will say to me ‘well, good for you, at least you knew what you wanted or didn’t want and acted responsibly’. Uhh … thanks? What I am is very sad and frankly, lonely, and I wage a daily battle against paralyzing anger. See, unlike you, Dr. C., I’m unable to find solace or fulfillment in my projects. Oh, I do them, and I throw myself int them with all I have and am. They get me through the day without falling into abject depression, for sure, but they don’t take the place of someone with whom to intimately share my life.
What you said about being 37 and feeling that you have to explain why you don’t have children resonates with me. I’m 43, was married for 20 years and no kids… to top if off, my former in-laws were LDS, so we were looked upon as selfish, career-driven (me, mostly) over-educated people who couldn’t bring themselves to make the sacrifices necessary to have kids.
The odd thing is that I wanted kids and my raised LDS ex-husband did not. It would have ment that he might have to worry about finances instead of letting me support him in grad and law school… but, I’m the one who was pretty much seen as too busy pursuing a Ph.D. to bother having babies.. Given our divorce, I’m glad we didn’t have kids together.
In my late 20s and 30s I found myself with more lesbian friends — it took me a while to figure out why — until I realized that my old friends and I had less in common because they were in their prime little-kid years. Now many of them have kids who are in their late teens and early 20s, so we’re back to being friends.
I always told my family that the ex and I would probably adopt an older child – well, the ex didn’t work out, but my new partner has a 20 year old and a 10 year old — so when they visit, I have the new challenge of being “instant-mommy” — I love them both and wouldn’t trade my place in their lives for anything, but I did miss a lot of the good and bad kid stuff that makes those relationships deeply satisfying. I also have to negotiate my own parenting style going from 0-60 instantly — and working those things out with my partner and the mother of the 10 year old in particular has been an interesting interpersonal exercise.
I agree with nicoleandmaggie up thread here. I don’t have family around. I never did. And yet I have more kids than I can shake a stick at. So I get what Tem was saying–not having family nearby is not really the reason since people have kids all the time without having family support. Same goes for every other thing mentioned in the post. At a certain point, it starts to feel like an exercise in self-justification, which is nicoleandmaggie’s point, I think. Why self-justify when no justification is necessary? And as I read Tem’s point, the apparently reasons given were not insurmountable reasons. So it either sounds like you’re making excuses or that we’re excusing you from kids on the basis of extenuating circumstances. Either way around it’s rehearsing the same you ought to have a kid unless you have a good reason no wait that reason isn’t good enough thing.
I almost wrote a post in reply to your post because it offends me a little to put motherhood in a category with neat life experiences a person may or may not ever have. Because children are people. But you know that and if your way of discussing your life offends me, that might be mine to live with and not yours. Go forth and be childfree, sister.
Thanks, Dr. Crazy, and to Feminist Avatar for that really important comment about the value of thoughtful indecision.
I really like what Feminist Avatar said about other states of being. Not even just with kids, but with so many life “decisions”, I’m constantly faced with “why don’t you KNOW/decide already?” Sorry that I don’t know everything I want to do with my life (except more travel), and if I’m ok with being in the process of thinking it through, trying things to figure it out, then why is that so threatening?
Because, rented life, your choices have to replicate mine exactly, otherwise I might experience second thoughts or regret about my own life course. You also must make the same decisions for the same reasons and experience the results of those decisions in precisely the same way, otherwise I’ll call you names and say that you’re a bad decision-maker because you’re slightly different from me.
Don’t you understand, rented life, that you have a grave responsibility to me not to undermine my decisions by making decisions of your own?
(As Homer Simpson once wrote in a letter to Mr. Burns: “In case you can’t tell, I’m being sarcastic!“)
haha, and I just made a Mr. Burns reference last night!
I feel like an anomoly among most people I know but I really just can not understand that mentality (despite encountering it everywhere). But then many of the people I know “always knew” what they wanted. They stuck with a certain major, got a certain degree, stuck with certain jobs, knew they’d have 2.2 kids with a house and a dog and exactly what age they’d do everything. Clearly I make people uncomfortable by not doing all that, and certainly not doing anything in any kind of nice and neat order!
“I really resent feeling like I have to explain not pursuing motherhood.”
I’m with you on that. I don’t want children: end of.